Curse

Myotheraccount · Apr 23, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

MB are subpar to human MMs.
The AI sucks at condition/hex removal - as evidenced by the AR/SF application of cracked armour.
ER prot/SY! outclass pretty much everything else you listed.

This are the things that the AI excels at.
And in EVERY regard that matters in PvE - they are outclassed by humans.

But this is getting a bit off-topic.
What I was trying to say is that I approve of an objective discussion. And this wasn't it anymore. It was a simple pissing contest.

LOL.

How? There are hardly any player that can throw DN around as good as AI and MB are still way better than MMs.

I dunno about cracked armor. But the speed at which heroes can remove condition and the way they use Smite Condition/Hex is prety amazing.

As for ER/SY!, they are overrated.

Ultimately makin a full player party for general PvE purposes is useless and won't increase your performance enough to justify the effort and organization taken to have 8 tom notch players ready for any HM mission, area or dungeon. You

You also clearly don't know how to play with heroes. You never did.

Furthermore comparing 8-player party to hero party is probably one of the most idiotic things I have seen on guru.

These discussion are usually pretty decent. Too bad attention seekers like yourself just have to derail each and every one of them.

Myotheraccount · Apr 23, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Off:

OoU + EBSoH on a MM.
You get the wall and you get massive damage.
A MB can simply not compare.

The issues with condition and hex removal is that AI isn't smart enough to differentiate between hexes/condition that NEED to be removed and hexes/conditions that actually do not matter.

ER/SY are among the most overpowered things in the game and heroes either can not use them (SY!) or the can not use them as good as a human (ER) making heroes sub-par to humans.

The ease of PvE makes the discussion regarding which one is superior, the MB or the ST, even less important. You can win PvE with shit, and these builds are far from it. Which one is more suitable for the player will eventually depend on subjective and objective reasons - and while we can explain the objective reasons, subjective ones are equally important and they prevent making a clear call on what is better.

Fanboyism is strong in this one. OoU + EBSoH is ok but heroes make up for that with Death Nova. Plus you can run EBSoH yourself.

SY! is redundant most of them time. Same goes for ER. Not denying that they are good though.

Honestly by your logic we shouldn't be discussing player builds vs hero builds either due to ease of PvE. But I'd rather discuss MB vs ST than player vs Hero.

You can't compare builds for players to heroes. They are made for different purposes, involve different tactics and skills. You also can't claim a hero build to be sub-par only because it's a hero build.

Myotheraccount · Apr 23, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So what you are arguing is that an AI MB is superior to a MM played by the best players?

Exactly that. MB is better.

Best players shouldn't play builds like your MM. I'd rather have them running something only a player can run for example AP MoP. There won't be much difference between best or worst player playing a build such as MM. Raise minions, plant wards. That's it.

Comparing two build effectiveness I'd say both are more or less the same. What MM gains through EBSoH MB gains from DN and AI's awesome minion-managing skills. I would also like to point out that AI can run AoU assisted by a player with EBSoH. Bad build choice mate. :P

What makes MB superior is that for the area it was designed for, it is superior by far. Deadly and effective build to give your AI that is a great asset to any H/H team.

For player however, MM is a sub-par build. There are many better builds a player can run. This role can be betetr handled by AI in solo play while the player runs a stronger build himself such as AP spiker. In 8 player setup minions are simply not needed.

So as you can see MB is betetr than MM even if played by the best player.

Quote:

I am absolutely NOT arguing that we shouldn't be discussing hero builds.
As I said many times, in this thread alone, I am all for arguing builds. What I am arguing though is that if we focus on the objective side of the argument - the discussion can be of greater value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The ease of PvE makes the discussion regarding which one is superior, the MB or the ST, even less important. You can win PvE with shit, and these builds are far from it. Which one is more suitable for the player will eventually depend on subjective and objective reasons - and while we can explain the objective reasons, subjective ones are equally important and they prevent making a clear call on what is better.

So objective or subjective?

You sir, make no sense.

Jeydra · Apr 23, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Stop being unfair upier. Of course the option to use PvE skills is better than not having that option. PvE skills are mad anyway. But sometimes you just don't have that option. Like I said, AP calling Elementalists may be "subpar" in the sense that lots of builds beat it at dealing damage, but if you are constrained by 1) dealing damage and 2) being an Elementalist primary, you don't exactly have better options. If you are constrained by H/H, then especially if you are a caster, MB's are one of the best options you have. That is clearly superior than waiting 20 days to get a full, competent 8-man team to vanquish Arborstone with - if you ever get it!

PS: Yes Mhenlo and Danika are serious business. They heal. You can't PvE without heals (not against the kind of damage in Eternal Grove, anyway). Since you're getting heals, don't pass it off as you're getting by without it.

Myotheraccount · Apr 24, 2010, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: Yes Mhenlo and Danika are serious business. They heal. You can't PvE without heals (not against the kind of damage in Eternal Grove, anyway). Since you're getting heals, don't pass it off as you're getting by without it.

Mhenlo, Danika. Ehh. Whatever you say I guess.

Two WoHs is not that much of a heal though. We still defenetely had less heal than most parties doing that Mission. I tanked the left side and had zero heal at least on my heroes. Like I said, I haven't seen either of these NPC near me so they probably were near my friend. My own heroes or myself didnt even have their hp bars drop.

I shouldn't be telling this to you really. You know full well how strong spiritway is.

Ther point I was making was that in some cases heroes are far from inferior to a human player and that if you can't call good AI build subpar simply because humans possess PvE skills.

Myotheraccount · Apr 24, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That just means that minions, in general - be it a MM or a MB, are sub-par to what else is available. IF a player should run minions, he should be running a MM and not a MB. The reason why he should not be running a MB isn't only in not being able to apply DN (which the AI CAN do better) but actually because of the double wall (Horrors and Fiends), much bigger damage though OuU+EBSoH, and a more durable wall.
The bonuses a MM brings overshadow the bonuses of a MB.

Which means that MB, one of the best hero builds, is not only sub-par to what else you could be running (as mentioned AP-MoP or Orders), it's also sub-par when looking JUST at minions.

On a player yes but on a hero no. Rest of your post is bullshit. You shouldnt be running fiends if you want a wall. You get a handful of horrors that get wiped in the frontline and then fiends pull mobs to your squishies: Bad. Fiends are damage dealers thats why they go well with AoU but they don't work out as a wall. Besides like I said heroes can run the same MM bar WITH DN which is never bad and a player will run ebsoh. That means AI MB > human MM.

No MB is not sub-par at all. It's a very strong build for AI that is not supposed to be run by players hence you cant compare the two. You seem to have no idea about how to evaluate a build.

Chthon · Apr 24, 2010, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Upier is correct: A human MM is lightyears better than a hero MB. The DPS is much, much higher -- we're talking at least a factor of 10. The minions have better health and armor, and therefore make a better wall than a MB's minions. (Unless you're one of those morons who uses high-priced minions, and spends the resources to heal them, while simultaneously waiting for them to die and blow up...) The positioning is 1000 times smarter (how often does Olias lag a mile behind?), and so are a bunch of other small things (like the choice of which minion to summon from which corpse, the timing of sacrifices, etc.) that add up to a very big difference.

Myotheraccount, your posts indicate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about; please stop now.

Myotheraccount · Apr 25, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Upier is correct: A human MM is lightyears better than a hero MB. The DPS is much, much higher -- we're talking at least a factor of 10. The minions have better health and armor, and therefore make a better wall than a MB's minions. (Unless you're one of those morons who uses high-priced minions, and spends the resources to heal them, while simultaneously waiting for them to die and blow up...) The positioning is 1000 times smarter (how often doe Olias lag a mile behind?), and so are a bunch of other small things (like the choice of which minion to summon from which corpse, the timing of sacrifices, etc.) that add up to a very big difference.

Myotheraccount, your post indicate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about; please stop now.

Lols.

Almost the same actually. You must be theorycrafting or failing epicly at hero builds.

If you disable Death Nova when you run long distances, MB won't lag behind. Very simple thing called playing smart.

You seem to be influenced by Discordway and pseudo-elitist narbs. Without any heal your bone minions won't even make it to the mobs. You will end up triggering maybe 2-3 Death Nova's at very best and losing your wall. I don't like that. High levels minions with BotM will still die fast but at least they can actually get to the mobs and provide a decent wall as well as bigger domagz. I can't believe I have to actually explain this to you, it's so obvious. Maybe you should try thinking for once.

People on guru really like to call things "sub-par" and talk about efficiency or best options while thinking on a level of very degenerate playstyle.

So really you are the ones who don't know what they are talking about.

Chthon · Apr 25, 2010, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

You seem to be influenced by Discordway...

You don't read these forums much, do you?

If you did, you'd know that I am probably discordway's most outspoken critic (and was since before criticizing discordway was cool).

You'd also know that Upier and I almost never agree on anything... except that you're being an idiot right now.

Quote:

You must be theorycrafting or failing epicly [sic] at hero builds.

I think it's more a matter of you failing at player builds.

Jeydra · Apr 25, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Upier is correct: A human MM is lightyears better than a hero MB. The DPS is much, much higher -- we're talking at least a factor of 10. The minions have better health and armor, and therefore make a better wall than a MB's minions. (Unless you're one of those morons who uses high-priced minions, and spends the resources to heal them, while simultaneously waiting for them to die and blow up...) The positioning is 1000 times smarter (how often does Olias lag a mile behind?), and so are a bunch of other small things (like the choice of which minion to summon from which corpse, the timing of sacrifices, etc.) that add up to a very big difference.

Of course player MMs are much better than hero MMs. Of course! If nothing else players have an array of PvE skills backing them up. So what? You don't go around calling hero minion bombers "sub par" because they're not. The two builds are different and serve different purposes. It's like comparing a Godmode DSlasher vs. an ER Ele. Which is subpar? Is that even a sensible question?

PS: 2 WoHs mean a lot. In fact I've found myself wishing at times, while vanquishing, that ANet would replace the healer henchman's bar with just WoH, taking out Heal Other / Empathic Removal etc ...

Life Bringing · Apr 25, 2010, 08:57 AM // 08:57

K, Igor, l2p. Minions last more than enough time to get from mob to mob.

K, Upier, quit being retarded. Comparing player builds to hero bars doesn't make any sense. Comparing hero builds to 8 players doesnt make any sense. Comparing 2 very different styles of MMing doesnt make sense either. You could argue that either one is better.

@Chthon, which MM is better depends completely on playstyle. If you're using your minions as meatshields, then a minion bomber is going to greatly outclass an OoU. If you're not going to the front so the minions take the brunt of the damage, then the OoU is going to do more damage, simply because the minions will live longer. Such a comparison gets even more complicated as a fight goes on, because if you have 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle, the minion bomber is going to destroy the OoU in DPS simply because the fight wouldn't last long enough for the minions to catch up in damage.

Btw, if im seeing the OoU build right, you don't have room for the added utility that a MB can carry, most notably prots. That means that prots have to go somewhere else, which might restrict the DPS of that bar.

Myotheraccount · Apr 25, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

They do but sometimes unhealthy and few so they get picked off by ranged classes and explode out of range. =/

Thats why I like horrors better. Not saying that minions are bad. Both work.

I agree with your post though. You summed up the things nicely.

Daesu · Apr 25, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

@Chthon, which MM is better depends completely on playstyle. If you're using your minions as meatshields, then a minion bomber is going to greatly outclass an OoU. If you're not going to the front so the minions take the brunt of the damage, then the OoU is going to do more damage, simply because the minions will live longer. Such a comparison gets even more complicated as a fight goes on, because if you have 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle, the minion bomber is going to destroy the OoU in DPS simply because the fight wouldn't last long enough for the minions to catch up in damage.

The situation where all 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle is not going to be common and if that happens, the MB is not going to be providing much of a meatshield. The OoU MM provides a much better meatshield than the MB because a OoU MM usually brings BoTM or EBSoC. While MB minions are designed to die and explode, a OoU MM minions are designed to stay alive. In most situations, a human OoU MM is going to out damage a MB in HM where monsters dont easily die from a single minion bomb.

Quote:

Btw, if im seeing the OoU build right, you don't have room for the added utility that a MB can carry, most notably prots. That means that prots have to go somewhere else, which might restrict the DPS of that bar.

The prots can be easily transferred to another character so the OoU MM can bring MORE damage skills like EBSoH, Barbs, or MoP with fiends.

Chthon · Apr 25, 2010, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

@Chthon, which MM is better depends completely on playstyle. If you're using your minions as meatshields, then a minion bomber is going to greatly outclass an OoU. If you're not going to the front so the minions take the brunt of the damage, then the OoU is going to do more damage, simply because the minions will live longer. Such a comparison gets even more complicated as a fight goes on, because if you have 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle, the minion bomber is going to destroy the OoU in DPS simply because the fight wouldn't last long enough for the minions to catch up in damage.

Btw, if im seeing the OoU build right, you don't have room for the added utility that a MB can carry, most notably prots. That means that prots have to go somewhere else, which might restrict the DPS of that bar.

Daesu pretty much beat me to it...

1. OoU's minions are going to provide a better meat shield because (1) Horrors have much higher armor and hp than Bone Minions (so do Fiends for that matter), and (2) they should be getting healed frequently with BotM.

Of course, you could use Horrors and BotM in a MB build, but then you'd be a retard. If your damage depends on how frequently your minions die, it's not very bright to spend energy raising more expensive minions that live longer or to spend energy and life healing them. Either your minions are supposed to live (MM) or they are supposed to die (MB). Trying to do both will make you bad at doing both.

2. If a few death novas is all it takes to kill a particular mob, that mob isn't really worth putting any thought into what builds you use to kill it.

3. The prots never belonged on the MB in the first place. The MB has a 3sec animate spell and DN has a 2sec cast. This is a really bad spot to put anything that needs a quick response. The only reason that the MB got the prot in Sabway was that it was intended as a build for VQing four-man zones and there just wasn't anywhere else for the prot to go. The prot stayed on the MB in various 8-man builds and in discordway because people were just too damn dumb to move it to someplace better.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 26, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

On a related note, how capable are heroes of running OoU?

Life Bringing · Apr 26, 2010, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Daesu pretty much beat me to it...

1. OoU's minions are going to provide a better meat shield because (1) Horrors have much higher armor and hp than Bone Minions (so do Fiends for that matter), and (2) they should be getting healed frequently with BotM.

Of course, you could use Horrors and BotM in a MB build, but then you'd be a retard. If your damage depends on how frequently your minions die, it's not very bright to spend energy raising more expensive minions that live longer or to spend energy and life healing them. Either your minions are supposed to live (MM) or they are supposed to die (MB). Trying to do both will make you bad at doing both.

2. If a few death novas is all it takes to kill a particular mob, that mob isn't really worth putting any thought into what builds you use to kill it.

3. The prots never belonged on the MB in the first place. The MB has a 3sec animate spell and DN has a 2sec cast. This is a really bad spot to put anything that needs a quick response. The only reason that the MB got the prot in Sabway was that it was intended as a build for VQing four-man zones and there just wasn't anywhere else for the prot to go. The prot stayed on the MB in various 8-man builds and in discordway because people were just too damn dumb to move it to someplace better.

1. To be fair, i run AotL on my MB, so at least half of my minions are horrors. You can argue that it's inefficient, but it damn outclasses JB.

2. I strolled through frostmaws with an MM. The ~8 worms that pop up all in one place drop down under 50% when the death nova bombs go off.

3. Lol, learn2equip. 40/20/20 staff and a bloodstained insignia. Besides, proper agroing through the MM makes it so the prots only need to be cast on the MM to protect him from caster damage. There's not a whole lot of need for a quick response in this situation.

As for prot location, the MB is the only place where i can fit prots in my hero setups. In discord(3 man), there's really not a whole lot of room on anything but the MB either, considering heals on an MB don't work, and aoe curses cost too much to be effective on it.

Daesu · Apr 26, 2010, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

3. Lol, learn2equip. 40/20/20 staff and a bloodstained insignia. Besides, proper agroing through the MM makes it so the prots only need to be cast on the MM to protect him from caster damage. There's not a whole lot of need for a quick response in this situation.

All my MM heroes have blood stained insignia and 40/20/20 staff. It is not just a matter of reducing cast time, it is a matter of the MB being in mid-cast, casting other spells (like DN or Animate) instead of PS at that very instant that you need him to. But this can be mitigated by microing PS on the MM. On a ER protect hero, however, the PS is more responsive and there is less of a need to micro.

Besides if you just need to protect the MM, you can equip him with Dark Bond. Dark Bond helps minions to bomb while protecting the MM at the same time and works well even with 0 points to Blood magic.

Quote:

As for prot location, the MB is the only place where i can fit prots in my hero setups. In discord(3 man), there's really not a whole lot of room on anything but the MB either, considering heals on an MB don't work, and aoe curses cost too much to be effective on it.

This is partly why I don't use discordway with my melee characters, so I don't have that issue.

Jeydra · Apr 26, 2010, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And on the other hand - you were able to conclude that a MB is superior to ST.

As defensive characters, yes you can.

A couple of things as well:

1. MBs do not want their minions to all go boom at once. That's bad, actually, because not having minions on the battlefield means all the damage goes to you and your heroes - against high-damage mobs, this is deadly. The more minions you have the better. If the minions don't die, they might not deal as much damage, but they are still there to wall the monsters and the rest of the party get to work unimpeded.

Now one might say this contradicts the idea of Death Nova and, to be honest, you might be right. However, I know of no MM build that brings the blend of defence and offence that MBs bring, and can be used by a hero. If you know of one, post it and I'll test it.

2. Obvious reason to put prots on the MM - it's a Necro, it has the energy to use it. Also since when did anyone micro Prot Spirit outside of aggro anyway? Sure, it can be done and if properly executed it helps a lot. I do it every now and then. Yes, if the MB is casting then it might miss the Prot Spirit and so someone die. But in most areas I'm lazy and don't micro it, and I don't think many people do.

Chthon · Apr 27, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

On a related note, how capable are heroes of running OoU?

Not very. They don't understand that it should be spammed like mad for damage. Nor do they understand that saccing while under fire is a bad idea. Nor do they understand that it is a net heal if an adequate supply of vamps is up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As defensive characters, yes you can.

A couple of things as well:

1. MBs do not want their minions to all go boom at once. That's bad, actually, because not having minions on the battlefield means all the damage goes to you and your heroes - against high-damage mobs, this is deadly. The more minions you have the better. If the minions don't die, they might not deal as much damage, but they are still there to wall the monsters and the rest of the party get to work unimpeded.

Now one might say this contradicts the idea of Death Nova and, to be honest, you might be right.

I do and it is.

Quote:

However, I know of no MM build that brings the blend of defence and offence that MBs bring, and can be used by a hero.

That's not the question at hand. I agree with you that the hero AI cannot run any minion build better than it runs a MB. Absolutely. But they question at hand is Myotheraccount's (ridiculous) claim that a hero MB is superior to a player MM.

Daesu · Apr 27, 2010, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If the minions don't die, they might not deal as much damage, but they are still there to wall the monsters and the rest of the party get to work unimpeded.

If the minions don't die, they might not deal as much damage. If the minions die, they deal damage to help you generate more corpses to create newer minions with max hp, besides fueling soul reaping.

If you are using spiritway, you can also rely on spirits to help you tank other than just the minions.